ISHMAEL, HAGAR, PARAN & MECCA

[Peter]

This thread is locked to avoid redundant posting, please comment on this link http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CG97A7aKds

ISHMAEL, HAGAR, PARAN & MECCA

Abraham's wife, Sarah, thought herself too advanced in age to bear a child, so she encouraged Abraham to have a child with her handmaiden Hagar, so that Abraham's name could be carried forward. But later on the Lord did bless Abraham and Sarah with a son.

Genesis 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.

Genesis 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned. 9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he [is] thy seed.

14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. o 15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Muslims have actually been taught that the "well of water" referenced in verse 19 above is the well of Zamzam in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. That would mean that between verse 14 when they were sent away, and 15 when their water ran out, Hagar and Ishmael would have had to travel across 1200 kilometers of - at that time - uninhabited, unexplored, uncharted desert, on a single skin of water, only to arrive at one of the harshest environments that Arabia has to offer. In fact, all of the historians and geographers from several centuries B.C. and on into the Christian era, who wrote about the area where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century A.D., described the area as being "uninhabitable".
Please see the video "History of Mecca" for more on that subject.



Here is a sample Islamic site on the matter: "Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."

So then apparently Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael walked across a 1200 kilometers of unknown desert, Abraham dropped them off under a tree in what eventually became Mecca, and then Abraham "set out" on his 1200 kilometer walk back home. Anything seem a bit peculiar about that picture?

Muslims are also taught that Ishmael was Abraham's only son at the time. Why would Abraham abandon his only son? Is Abraham supposed to have hung around Mecca until Ishmael got old enough to help him build the Kaaba? Or did he walk back "home" and then walk the 1200 kilometers back to Mecca? Did Sarah wander to Mecca so that she and Abraham could conceive their son Isaac? It's obvious how preposterously untenable the whole ridiculous story is, on so many levels, as created in Islam.

We know from scripture that Ishmael....

Genesis 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran...






Genesis 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Are we to believe that Hagar traveled back the 1000 kilometers through the desert from Mecca to Egypt, and then back again, with Ishmael's wife?  o  Of course that's not the case because the historical and scriptural evidence suggest that the 12 tribes that developed from Ishmael's sons inhabited the northern Sinai peninsula, the Wilderness of Paran and surrounding area.

We also know that Ishmael wasn't very far away because he was available to attend his father Abraham's burial near Hebron.

Genesis 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

Amazingly, in order to resolve the preposterous suggestion that Abraham or Ishmael were ever at the place where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century A.D. - 1200 kilometers from where Abraham actually lived - the most quoted 8th century Islamic "tradition" creator Ibn Ishak, originated the idea that Abraham commuted back and forth to visit Ishmael in Mecca, on the winged camel, or Baraq (Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 165). He also invoked this mythical animal to explain how Ishmael was able to attend Abraham's funeral, 1200 kilometers from Mecca.

In the Zoroastrian scriptures a fabled winged camel was used by their mythical prophet to travel to and from the place where their immortal ancestors were supposed to have dwelt. Mohammed also credited a similar creature for transporting him on an overnight journey, covering the 1200 kilometers to Jerusalem, then to heaven, and back to Mecca by morning. Please visit the "Mohammed's Night Journey" video for more on that extremely important subject, in Islam.

The biggest reason we also know that neither Abraham nor Ishmael visited Mecca, is because Mecca did not exist before immigrants from Yemen built it in the 4th century A.D., and built their Kaaba for Arabian Star Family worship in the early 5th century, of which their moon god stone idol Muslims still bow toward today. Please see the "History of Mecca" and "Mecca, the Kaaba, and the Black Stone" videos.

To our Muslim friends, will you to continue to reject the 1600 year record of God to mankind, that we can see from the above is a perfect geographical and historical fit, or will you continue to follow Mohammed's stand-alone, antichrist, 7th century religion, and the flying camels of Islam's 7th and 8th century fiction? Are rehashed fables and jinn worship really what you want to bet your eternal destiny on? Have you ever even read the Bible?

This thread is locked to avoid redundant posting, please comment on this link http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

[Peter]

Genesis 25.12  Now these [are] the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:    13  And these [are] the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,    14  And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,    15  Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: {Hadar: or, Hadad}    16  These [are] the sons of Ishmael, and these [are] their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.    17  And these [are] the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.    18  And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that [is] before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: [and] he died in the presence of all his brethren. {died: Heb. fell}

Did Isaac and Jacob live in Mecca too?

[Peter]

You Tube PM with nali quoted in [[[[  ]]]]] and nali as "ME" and Pete as "YOU"

[[[[YOU:
Forever is a very long time, my friend. You could die this very day.


ME:
IT ABSOLUTLY IS, which is why i will follow the teaching of god to adam ....]]]]

The problem with this preposterous delusion that you suffer under is that you have not yet, nor will you be able to, present a single shred of historical or archaeological evidence, that attests to any of the pre-Mohammed Islamic history that you have been trained to believe.
The reason, of course, is that it was all created by Mohammed and his boys in the 7th and 8th century AD.
Do you understand this?

Do you understand that the place where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD is a thousand kilometers from anywhere Abraham ever traveled?

How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

Did he fly on Mohammed's winged camel?
_______________________

[[[[How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

Did he fly on Mohammed's winged camel?

ME:
allah knows what he allows to happen just today i happen to watch a video that answers this question of history pre-muhammad(saw)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIzyxDr3j44

it talks about the discovery of the Ark...]]]]

Why change the subject? We both know why, don't we.

Did Abraham and Ishmael commute back and forth on flying camels or not?
That's the story the 7th and 8th century Mohammedan history creators chose to explain it away.
How do you explain it?
____________________

[[[[How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

Did he fly on Mohammed's winged camel?

ME:
allah knows what he allows to happen just today i happen to watch a video that answers this question of history pre-muhammad(saw)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIzyxDr3j44

it talks about the discovery of the Ark...]]]]

Why change the subject? We both know why, don't we.

Did Abraham and Ishmael commute back and forth on flying camels or not?
That's the story the 7th and 8th century Mohammedan history creators chose to explain away the impossible.
How do you explain it?
_______________________

YOU:
[[[How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

Did he fly on Mohammed's winged camel?

ME:
allah knows what he allows to happen just today i happen to watch a video that answers this question of history pre-muhammad(saw)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIzyxDr3j44

it talks about the discovery of the Ark...]]]]

Why change the subject? We both know why, don't we.

Did Abraham and Ishmael commute back and forth on flying camels or not?
That's the story the 7th and 8th century Mohammedan history creators chose to explain away the impossible.
How do you explain it?

ME:
YOU BLIND CHRISTIAN, DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT YOU WROTE? YOU ASKED ME MULTIPLE THINGS IN THIS EMAIL AND I RESPONDED TO YOUR MULTIPLE THINGS, YOU CLAIM TO UNDERSTAND A LANGUAGE THAT YOU DONT EVEN SPEAK, BUT YOU CANNOT EVEN UNDERSTAND THE SAME LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK THAT IS THE MOST REDICLIOUS THING, YOU ARE PROOVING WITHOUT A DOBUT THAT YOU ARE SIMPLY A WASTE OF TIEM YOU ARE TRUTLY BLIND YOU ARE TRULY DEAF AND YOU ARE TRULY NOT WORTH A SINGLE EFFORT BECAUSE YOU WILL SEE THE TRUTH AND NOT EVEN CONSIDER IT.

Your email started off by saying "nor will you be able to, present a single shred of historical or archaeological evidence,"

so which i started of responding and telling you that there is evidence of things in the quran with a new descovery of noah's ark for instance, there are hundereds of other things we could probably get into but waste of time as you are not a truth seeker.




if you had continue to read the email i sent you, you would see that i stated:

--------------------------------------
YOU:
How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

ME:
God allowed fighters in persia to make it to mecca in one day's travel and back to persia behind the army they left marching and these were not prophets of god, so why can god not do the same for his messengers to allow their journey to be shortened? you tell me i limit god but you forget that god has all powers and can make a turtle go faster than a 747 if he so willed.
--------------------------------------

I agree in the original email i copied the entire email and forgot to section out the email in parts so that you can know what i am speaking about, but you are too blind to even know what you asked and what i responded to.

here is the original email read it again.



*****************************************
YOU:
The problem with this preposterous delusion that you suffer under is that you have not yet, nor will you be able to, present a single shred of historical or archaeological evidence, that attests to any of the pre-Mohammed Islamic history that you have been trained to believe.
The reason, of course, is that it was all created by Mohammed and his boys in the 7th and 8th century AD.
Do you understand this?

Do you understand that the place where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD is a thousand kilometers from anywhere Abraham ever traveled?

How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

Did he fly on Mohammed's winged camel?

ME:
allah knows what he allows to happen just today i happen to watch a video that answers this question of history pre-muhammad(saw)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIzyxDr3j44

it talks about the discovery of the Ark EXACTLY where the quran said it landed. you wanted one single evidence, here is one, now what are you going to do are you going to accept or are you now going to pretend this didnt happen?


As for where abraham traveled, did he leave a calling card every where that he travelled for you to know everywhere he went?

also when we read your bible we find:

Psalm 84:6 (King James Version)
6Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.


In the quran the valley of mecca is called bakka

003.096
YUSUFALI: The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:
PICKTHAL: Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Becca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples;
SHAKIR: Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the nations.


Every muslim will tell you that Mecca is the first place of worship, so that is a proof in it's self that even your bible talks about the pilgrimage to this holy land.

YOU:
How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

ME:
God allowed fighters in persia to make it to mecca in one day's travel and back to persia behind the army they left marching and these were not prophets of god, so why can god not do the same for his messengers to allow their journey to be shortened? you tell me i limit god but you forget that god has all powers and can make a turtle go faster than a 747 if he so willed.

YOU:
Did he fly on Mohammed's winged camel?

ME:
i have no idea where you got camel from, i have heard the animal described as a winged horse, and i believe god can create anything he so desires and if a winged horse is something god wanted to create then why not? are you telling me that god cannot create such an animal?
*****************************************
__________________________

[[[[YOU:
How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

ME:
God allowed fighters in persia to make it to mecca in one day's travel and back to persia behind the army they left marching and these were not prophets of god, so why can god not do the same for his messengers to allow their journey to be shortened? you tell me i limit god but you forget that god has all powers and can make a turtle go faster than a 747 if he so willed.]]]]

Where do you find the account of this march to Mecca?
_________________

[[[[YOU:
How did Ishmael travel that thousand miles, a thousand years before the first caravan did, in time to make it to Abraham's funeral in Hebron?

ME:
God allowed fighters in persia to make it to mecca in one day's travel and back to persia behind the army they left marching and these were not prophets of god, so why can god not do the same for his messengers to allow their journey to be shortened? you tell me i limit god but you forget that god has all powers and can make a turtle go faster than a 747 if he so willed.]]]]

Where do you find the account of this march to Mecca?

ME:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid
Invasion of Persian Empire
"On his journey back to Mesopotamia, Khalid is said to have made a secret trip to Mecca to participate in Hajj."
Akram, Agha Ibrahim (2004), The Sword of Allah: Khalid bin al-Waleed -- His Life and Campaigns, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0195977149

I have not read this book but I believe wiki states this book speaks about the journey based on the links on the site. The actual source of it is Ibn Kathir's volume of books known as "The beginning and the end"
_______________________

[[[[[ME:
I think I was clear that this was just something I happen to get that very day before you emailed me so obviously I sent it to you... but you want to speak of archelogy, what about the discovery of the city of Iram? Is that a "maybe" as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iram_of_the_Pillars
"The Qur'an (1,400 years ago) mentions a certain city by the name of Iram (a city of pillars) [Qur'an: The Dawn 89:7], which was not known in ancient history and which was non-existent as far as historians were concerned. The December 1978 edition of the National Geographic Magazine records that in 1973, the city of Ebla was excavated in Syria. The city was discovered to be 4,300 years old. Researchers found in the library of Ebla a record of all of the cities with which Ebla had done business. On the list was the specific name of the city of "Iram" (and not the name of the general region of Ubar). The people of Ebla had apparently done business with the people of "Iram".[citation needed]
The Qur'an mentions Iram alongside 'Ad and Thamud:[1]" ]]]]]

Where in your article did it say that the Iram of the article had anything to do with pillars?

Madin Saleh, where the Qibla of the oldest mosques point to, is where the Thamud that Mohammed mentions settled.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1121.0

[Peter]

nali as "ME" Pete as "YOU"

YOU:
Pagan Arabian tradition also holds that Asaf and Naelah, the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn religion committed fornication inside the Kaaba, so "Allah" (their moon god) turned them into stone.
Two stone idols representing Asaf and Naelah were placed on al-safa and al-marwah, and after Mohammed's grandfather dug the well of Zamzam he dedicated it to them. So sincere was his worship to the jinn that he nearly sacrificed Mohammed's father to the idols.
Mohammedans, unto this day, still run back and forth between the two hills 7 times, just as the pagan Arabian jinn worshipers did. Indeed pagans and Muslims performed the ceremony shoulder to shoulder. What basic change was made to this ritual besides removal of the idols from al-safa and al-marwah?


ME:
there is not a single Hadith Literature that states this is why we run back and forth from the two hills, ......

The hadith records that even Mohammed's closest followers hated doing this ritual because they knew it was pagan.

Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed,  “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.”  He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)

Please explain to us what this pagan ritual was about before Mohammed was ever born.
Who was responsible for establishing the ritual as the Quraish practiced it.
What's the difference in the way this ritual is performed today and the way the pagans practiced it, besides the two stone idols of most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn-demon religion, Asaf and Naelah, have been removed?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1209.0

....... according to the ISLAMIC teaching, ........

"ISLAMIC teachings" are a bunch of 7th and 8th century created, self-contradicting, unsupportable, Arabian nonsense, that Muslims have to be brainwashed, and brainwash themselves, to believe. That's why Muslims have to reject the actual pre-4th century historical record, and archaeology, as well as simple geography, until theirs mirror the minds of 7th century desert dwelling illiterates.

According to Islamic history Mohammed's grandfather dug the well of Zamzam and dedicated it to Asaf and Naelah and nearly sacrificed his son - who eventually became Mohammed's father - to these two stone idols.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1209.0

........ these are the hills that Haggar ran between in search for water for the baby Ishmile.

My friend, simply repeating this 7th century created historical fiction will never make it come true. Hagar was never within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD. Nor were Abraham or Ishmael.
Archaeological evidence testifies to where Abraham traveled.
Please present the archaeological evidence that suggests he was ever in Mecca.
Please reply on that thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1277.0

And after all of your empty words you have yet to bring any historical or geographical EVIDENCE that suggests that Mecca ever existed before about the 4th century AD - much less nearly 1,500 years earlier. Please reply to this on that thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1276.0

She ran back and forth 7 times before she came to where the water sprouted at the feet of the baby.

Pure 7th and 8th century created history fictional poppycock.

over time the pagans adopted the ritual and erected the idols you speak of, which were then removed and the ritural purified to what it should be as it is today.

Utterly ridiculous suggestion.

it goes back to the example i pointed out to you ......

I'm sorry but there is no example that you pointed out, that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD.

....... but you are not even willing to see how pagans have changed the religion of god .......

Because they didn't. Yahweh's revelation to mankind through His 1600 year record through all of the prophets and witnesses remains intact.
However pagans created all of the Islamic rituals that Mohammed thinly repackaged, and included in his stand-alone 7th century religion, in an effort to be more inclusive of the pagans.

....... and because god clears away these pagan attributes to his religion does not make it a religion that was pagan derived.

Then why is it that you cannot present any historical record that predates the 4th century, or archaeological evidence, that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD, or it's kaaba before the early 5th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it for moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship?

because in fact ALL mankind and religion comes from Adam, .......

An utterly ridiculous suggestion regarding the first fallen man.

...... as such any new religion is a deviation and may contain the truth in it along with the pagan attributes, ......

You mean you wish to believe you can justify Mohammed's religion this way, but it is simply repackaged Arabian paganism. The epicenter of which has and will continue to be located 1200 kilometers from THE Holy Land, and never existed before the Christian era.

........ just as i believe is the case with your religion, where paganism of worshiping the created was added to the religion of god.

You wish to believe that, because you crate a straw god and straw "anti-Mohammed's" and then pretend they are who God's people have followed for 3500 years through His 1600 year record.